Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 The diocese of churches for the sake of others is pleased to present this before. So podcast, a place to celebrate the voices and values of C4. So see, for us though, is a national diocese of the Anglican church in North America led by Bishop Todd Hunter. You can learn more about us at <inaudible> dot org. Hello,
Speaker 1 00:00:31 Everyone. Welcome to the <inaudible> podcast. I'm your host, Ben stinky. And I'm here again with Bishop Todd Hunter. How are you today? Todd Ben long time. No, say it's been a week. We have this weekly one exact week. Yes. Weekly date with the Bishop where we get to chat with folks. And we're going to chat with Chris and Brad today as well, which you probably saw on the, um, the title of this episode. But before we get to our interview today, dear listeners, I wanted to make sure that you were aware that C4 RSO is celebrating black history month through seeing together, praying together and investing together. I'm kind of excited about this stuff. Seeing together is through the meditating on the art of Laura James, who does religious art, she's at the forefront of a movement toward a more inclusive representation of biblical figures. I checked out some of her artwork yesterday and it is gorgeous and beautiful.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 So on each Sunday, during February, as well as Ash, Wednesday, we're licensing one of her paintings or icons to eliminate one of the lectionary readings. And so we're providing questions and prompts for you to do Vizio Davina or sacred reading through those images. So check those things out. We're also praying together through we're featuring colleagues written by Cole, Arthur Riley from her black liturgies project who seeks to integrate concepts of dignity, lament, rage, justice, rest, and liberation with the practice of written prayer. So each week we will pray one of her colleagues from her black liturgies project together with our black brothers and sisters. And then we're also investing together through opportunities to invest financially in black led churches. Two of our churches in our diocese are co-led by black clergy, as well as partnering with St. Mary of Bethany parish in Nashville with their equitable healing reparations initiative, which I'm really excited about.
Speaker 1 00:02:28 I think we're going to have Danny come on the podcast sometime this month to talk a little bit more about it, but that initiative is seeking to take a repentant embodied economic instruct and constructive steps to plant seeds of restoration for financial justice and mental health with individuals and systems predominantly that have been dominated by white people and that have hindered and wounded people of color. So they're paying off student loans of a black of black in Nashville. That's kind of how they're seeking to be part of that project. So again, we'll have more on that, especially as we have Danny on the podcast and encourage you to check out the link in the show notes, follow C4. So in social media to stay up to date, I'm really excited about this. Todd, I don't know if you want to say anything more about this before we move on to our interview,
Speaker 2 00:03:19 Hearing you recite those things makes me very happy. And of course I was in on the planning of them and the approval of them, but just to hear them set all at one place, it makes me really happy. I think that, um, you know, this is probably a lot to say with everything else going on with the political season and pandemic and economic crisis and mental health crisis and all that, but it may not be too much to say that, uh, the issues of race are the most missional pregnant issues that I think we have today. So I'm pleased that we're paying attention to it.
Speaker 1 00:03:54 Yes, I am too. I'm really excited to see where it all goes. All right. So today we continue this new mini series we're doing from now up until lent begins called leaders unplugged. We're just interviewing some leaders in our diocese that either lead different geographical areas or aspects of the ministry of our diocese, just to get to know them and to hear about some of the life of our diocese. And today we're talking about church planting and church development and church adoption with the very Reverend Dr. Chris McDaniel, Canada for church development and Dr. Shot stuff right there. That's a lot of titles. I like to, I like to get all the titles in there for you guys. And then we're also talking with the Reverend Dr. Brad Swope, who is the director of church planting for the diocese, Chris and Brad, welcome to the <inaudible> podcast.
Speaker 3 00:04:44 It's good to be here. Thanks. My only goal is to add very, to my title. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:04:49 Yeah. That's we talked about that in one of the past podcasts, but that, that is a, an illustrious title to get, to get the very, and then the right. And, you know, those all kinds of other ones, most the most Reverend deaths, right. That's the Archbishop. Um, well, just to give our listeners a little bit of a sense of who you are besides those job titles and those letters before your name, introduce yourself to us a bit, Brad, maybe we'll start with you.
Speaker 3 00:05:17 Uh, my claim to fame is that I was an intern at Bishop Todd's church in Virginia Beach 28 years ago in the dark ages. I think there were dinosaurs. Yeah. And then I was one of the flock of about 75 church planters that went out under his, um, when he was, uh, the national director of the vineyard. So when I was a part of a cohort of folks who got to hang with him and Dallas and other interesting people on weekends, uh, so very good. We go back a bit and then I planted a church about 21 years ago, uh, in California.
Speaker 1 00:05:58 And you're still there pastor church. Yep. What's the name of the church?
Speaker 3 00:06:02 It's horizon church
Speaker 1 00:06:04 Horizon. Church of Roseville. Very good. Uh, thanks Brad. Chris, how about you?
Speaker 4 00:06:10 I'm a pastor senior pastor at Trinity Anglican in Atlanta, Georgia, and, um, planted that church in October of 2002. So it's been a few years, not quite as long as Brad's been at it, but getting there. And I have been in C4. So for now, uh, a long time and glad to serve and work in our diocese. And also, um, alongside Brad, we, we do some work for Todd and the diocese on the stuff we're going to be discussing today. So that's my context in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 00:06:40 Very good. Thanks guys. Um, so let's, let's talk a little bit about that. Um, maybe we'll start with church planting and go back to you, Brad. Um, maybe this seems like a rudimentary question, but uh, why focus on church planting? Um, why is this a big deal for C4? So,
Speaker 3 00:06:55 I mean, I, to me, it's, it's the, a historic model of the kingdom. Outbreaking everywhere. There's never a time where you don't see church planting as a vibrant way that the kingdom breaks out in the world, forming new worshiping communities. It works in every age and every culture, something about the spirit of God, working through the church to do something new. And when you do it, it's dynamic, it's stirring, you see things you see like frontlines acts works. Not that you can't see that in, you know, church life when you've been around a bit, but there's something really dynamic about those first three, four, five years and the excitement and the risk. And they tell the faith that seems to be built early, early. Uh that's. That was my experience. I can see Chris is shaking his head. That's his man. So I bet there's something really dynamic about it. And, um, I don't know, taking a risk for the kingdom and it is a risk, right? You risk a lot as a church planter, but when you see God do it, it's also reinforcing to your own faith to see how big God is.
Speaker 1 00:08:04 Who would you add to that, Chris?
Speaker 4 00:08:06 I think I would just simply say that. Yes. And a man, uh, for me personally, you know, I, I forgot who said it, Todd, you probably would remember, but the church is always one generation away from extinction. And without the work of church planting, we have no future and I'm a church planter myself. That's what I studied, uh, doing doctoral work at Asbury seminary, but more importantly than the education or the academic work or the thought work, this is just where the kingdom of God is most clearly advanced, I think. And in a diocese like ours, frankly, one of the reasons why I'm so resonant with our values and see for, so is that in addition to our more classically understood Anglican values, we have a value of mission and God is a God who is on mission. And I think church plantings at the very heart of that. It's exciting. Yeah. W sorry, Ben, when I hear
Speaker 2 00:08:56 Brad tell that story and just the feeling of, you know, when he was talking about, uh, newness freshness, I think Brad used the word newness. What I really love about that, Brad, is it, if you think about starting a church, you can think about it like a group of people worshiping or the worship team or children's ministry or whatever, and the liturgy, or, uh, uh, Eucharist, whatever. And that's all totally fine. But what I love about planting new churches is it means some new vision or some new DNA is getting started in the world. Yes. And you know, I've, you know, I've known hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of church planters over 45 years, and they're all slightly different. It's to your point, Brad, there's some little wrinkle they've heard from the spirit. There's some angle that they're passionate about. That's what I really love is the expression of new DNA and new visions
Speaker 3 00:09:46 In the world. And they're not repeatable. So like just a one-off, it's a special, it's like a, I mean, special snowflake, right? That's better for each different team. The word snowflake really just does a really
Speaker 1 00:10:00 Beautiful, I don't know why it's a bad word.
Speaker 3 00:10:02 Well, I'm thinking about the 10 church planners in our diocese, so very different and each in their own context and each working it out in so different ways and then beautifully sharing with one another and then iron sharpening iron. But there's no, I can do this and just take it from Chicago to which its eyes, it's a completely different thing.
Speaker 1 00:10:22 Yeah. That's a great point. I think sometimes when we hear church planning it, and sometimes the way that you see it done is it does look a little bit more like a franchise, right. Where it's like, Oh, one of those kinds of things with that name and that logo and that preacher, that's going to come here, you know, in this form, you know, that kind of thing. And you get all the, you know, the associations with a franchise. Well, I go to a Starbucks, I can expect a fairly consistent experience, but that's not how we're, that's not how we're church planting and C4. So, so how does it work in C4? So you mentioned 10 church planters. How are they in various stages, their various locations. And they're all kind of discerning this stuff individually, as you said, we're not individually, but they're discerning it for their own context. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:11:12 Well, I'll just say one of the things that we try to put, uh, and encouraging all of our church planners is that you exist really, um, for the sake of the world and specifically for the unchurched. Now that's the range of people, but we're not really trying to, uh, go and reshuffle Christians from other traditions or churches into our churches. So like when I went and planted, I remember the charts that Todd gave me and we really did not try to program for Christians. We tried to really reach and know our neighbors. So most of our meetings were in Starbucks and out in public space. And I remember the first of the first a hundred adults that we had 85 of them when we met them were not in a church. And so to me, that was a sign of, I that's what a church that really is now you'll need other Christians along the way, and God will give you other Christians, pioneer stock and scaffolding to help you do the work.
Speaker 3 00:12:04 But the really the goal is to go find in your context, like who is the spirit already or at work in it. Right? And so like, I think about Kim, Kimberly, and Andrew and Phoenix, and they're dealing with inner city Phoenix and immigration issues. And I'm like, that's a completely different context than let's say Wichita, uh, or Austin Becton and Nashville, like they're going to have their own and they're going to be in their own neighborhoods. And they're going to have their own set of people that have their own access. Like we always say at our church this night, I have my little circle of my sphere of influence. But if you now multiply, there's now 10, 15 people in the core group, they have their own sphere of influence. That's going to be totally unique as to who God now is reaching in that context. Now, as they gather the fingerprints of the spirit waiting to get this gift mix is going to be unique as well. So each one of ours is different.
Speaker 1 00:13:00 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that's, I think that's great. Um, what, uh, I figured out how to ask this question. Maybe I can direct it at you, Chris, the, um, just from your own experience of planting a church, um, as, as what, if we're not bringing a franchise model where it's like, you know, you know, you're doing it right. If you've got the a hundred point checklist and at the end of the day, you raise enough money and the logo looks right and your worship service goes well, and you got a hundred people like, boom, you're done. What if we're not doing it that way? Like, what are the markers that we're looking for? How do we know if we go into an area? How do we know if the spirit is at work? How do we know? Um, what, what is it that we're looking for as we, cause we're obviously not just seeking to gather people to catheter people, right? This is a Christian there's, you know, there's some tradition here that we're bringing forward. The gospel is something that we're bringing into this situation. So what, what is it that, um, what is it that we're looking for? How would we know if God is at work in a people?
Speaker 4 00:14:01 Well, I think the, you know, one of the reasons why I think Anglican, uh, treasure that we steward is actually uniquely positioned to be a part of this conversation regarding church planting or those beautiful Elizabeth and values of context and vernacular that live at the very heart of what it means to be an Anglican. I mean, if you go back into the English reformation, we took the mass out of Latin and put it in the language that a seven year old illiterate plow boy could understand. And the great book chained in the front of every English, parochial hall was, was an English Bible. And I actually it's one of the reasons why I'm so deeply committed to Anglican church planting is that I believe that Anglicanism invites us to pay attention to an exit G our context and then create missional, uh, identification moments that are actually, um, aligned with our context.
Speaker 4 00:14:54 I once heard somebody say regarding church planting, it's not that Christians don't have answers it's that we don't have answers to questions. People in our neighborhoods are asking. And so we have a different set of answers. And when I think about contextual ministry, you know, my mind goes to Leslie new begins exhortation as a misseology list that we would engage in a costly identification. And, you know, we're, so we're calling people, I think actually to be an Anglican church planter is to know your context and identify with it in a way that costs you something. And so what that means is you can have a perfect liturgy, but if you don't bother to know your name, your area and your, your neighborhood, and actually have answers to questions that there that are actually being asked. I mean, that's one of the things that Kimberly and Andrew are so inspiring to me because they actually are starting to get at what it, what the people around them need to need to know.
Speaker 4 00:15:50 And in some ways I think there's been an ecclesial, like laziness where we just don't ever get beneath the surface, but we're seeing more and more church planters and frankly, church leaders who are wanting to actually know what's going on around them. And as a guy who planted my church in, in 2002, so we're coming up on 19 years, it took us a long time to get beneath the surface and actually began to understand our community. We thought we knew, and then there was like a whole nother layer of getting to it. So it takes,
Speaker 1 00:16:22 Wow. Yeah. Hey everybody, welcome again to C4 Osos cycle of prayer spotlight, where we highlight the specific ministry we're praying for this week in our diocesan cycle of prayer. And this week we are praying for <inaudible> de San Lucas, otherwise known as the mission of St. Luke and Kansas city, Kansas, which is led by the Reverend Jean Flannery. And he's joined us today to share briefly about what's going on right now in their congregation and how we can pray, pray specifically for them, Jean, welcome to the <inaudible> spotlight.
Speaker 5 00:17:04 Well, thank you so much. I appreciate that, Ben. And it's a pleasure and joy to be here with you. Yes,
Speaker 1 00:17:09 Very good. This is a Spanish speaking congregation.
Speaker 5 00:17:11 It is. We, we S we tell everybody it's the only Spanish speaking Anglican congregation between Chicago and Dallas, you know, read on them. Is that true? It's very treatable. There's just, there's just nothing else out there. So, um, but, uh,
Speaker 1 00:17:27 Well, wonderful. I'm glad you could join us. Um, tell us something that you're encouraged by right now.
Speaker 5 00:17:32 Well, I have a new family has found their way into our church, and it's just a blessing during this time of the pandemic, you know, cause you think there's just, there's this little action going on, but, uh, they've been attending with us for almost two months now. And, um, we were already, uh, uh, trends, you know, NA national, uh, group. So, but they just added one more country to us. So now we have a new, uh, new Cuban family that will join, join our two, a hundred families and Mexican and us families. So it's was kind of fun. So we're really excited about that.
Speaker 1 00:18:07 Yeah. Anytime that happens during a pandemic. That's wonderful.
Speaker 5 00:18:11 Yeah. Yeah. You can rejoice in that for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:18:15 How about challenge that you guys are facing right now?
Speaker 5 00:18:18 Oh, well, just like everyone else depend. DEMEC just kind of just as we did, we have kind of put us since early, right before Thanksgiving, we kind of shut down all our outreach activities. And so those included, you know, our ESL that we do for adults or afterschool tutoring, we didn't didn't have our soccer camp that we usually have for underprivileged children during the summer. Um, I guess that the good part of as we've been able to give more and benevolence last year than, than ever before. So that's, that's, that site is good, but the challenge is this because the Latino community, um, proportionally is more susceptible to the, um, because of close living quarters and how they live, um, to the, to the COVID that just a little bit harder to gather them and okay.
Speaker 1 00:19:17 All right, well, in light of all this, how can we pray for you and for, let me see on,
Speaker 5 00:19:22 Okay. I appreciate that. Um, yeah, just that, of course it will be able to integrate the new family that's come in cause that we've kind of brought it into a new culture, you know, a family that grew up under communism and, and uh, now they're here with us and it's just, uh, it's good. It's gotta be exciting for us they're musicians. So it's not that we just, as a church could come together and be prepared. Um, you know, when we kind of come out, we're hopefully when all the, the vaccines really start happening and we can kind of open up some more of our outreaches that we'll be prepared to receive them. And, um, just that we'll be able to reach them with the love of Christ and be, be ready to, with arms open. Okay. So,
Speaker 1 00:20:05 Well, very good. Thanks for joining us today, Jean listeners, if you guys would like to find out more about the mission of St. Luke or to contribute to their work, check out the link in the show notes
Speaker 0 00:20:17 <inaudible> so even within Atlanta, have you found in your daughter churches that there's contexts like subcortex, they need to pay attention to our churches are completely different. And then we planted Redeemer as well, which is led by pastors, Leon, and drew. And that's an inner city church. And so when look at the last
Speaker 4 00:20:48 Three church plants out of Trinity, they could not be more distinct from one another. And so a one size fits all model just makes no sense. So what we do is say, what does costly identification look like in your area? And I think that's actually a very Anglican thing to say to people.
Speaker 2 00:21:05 Yeah, this, we didn't really give a, uh, I think, uh, we haven't quite got to your question yet, Ben, but what, so without talking about numbers or development, I think when I think back effective churches, if there was like a Venn diagram with three circles, I think effective churches are those who take serious their context. As Chris just said, they have a really spirit given unique vision or set of DNA, as Brad said. And then you have the person him heard him or herself, the planter with his or her own gift mix and temperament and background. I think when all those things come together, we used to say back in the day, right guy, sorry, ladies, you know, bright guy, right place, right time. And it was back in the day that was back in the day. But there's something about that where somebody has a passion and like, uh, um, some of this can be professional or something, but most of your spiders, I know have like an intuitive gut passionate exit.
Speaker 2 00:22:04 Jesus have their context. As Chris said, the ones who don't typically don't make it. Um, now that can be thoughtful, but it usually starts out passionate. And then you've got this passionate vision or DNA, this set of practices or values or priorities that you want to see come in public, you know, or be birthed in public. And then you've got the person himself when you put all those things together. And I guess what I would say to answer your question a little more carefully would be to say that I'm just always looking for momentum. To me, momentum is always more important than the score. Like you can turn on a football game and it's 27, 17 or one 27, 20 let's say, Oh, okay. Third quarter, you know, pretty report being in the fourth quarter. Okay. Maybe an interesting game. Well, it would be way more important to know that it used to be 27 to nothing.
Speaker 2 00:22:51 And then another team just scored 21 unanswered points and it's like a whole different game. So the thing that I always thought was the gold of church planning in terms of measurements was momentum. And sometimes that's attached to numbers, but sometimes it's attached to uptake of the vision uptake of the DNA uptake to the vision and values. Um, people being able to, um, say it for you. When we used to always tell me, Todd, you know, you've done it when you hear others teaching your set of values and vision and DNA. So that's, that was like the Holy grail of sort of the momentum in church planning when other people are excitedly telling your story for you. And you know, Chris and I have talked to some about numbers and stuff, but that mostly has to do with sustainability. I think spiritually, we're looking more for momentum. I don't know. Brad, how would you say that
Speaker 4 00:23:45 The
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Person himself has such an imprint on the church plant? So I'm thinking about Adam Jones in West Seattle and him sharing a story with me before the pandemic about how he'd met the stage manager of a grunge band. And, uh, I was asking him questions of faith, what was opening doors and how he goes, you know, kind of bar hopping to talk about his church plan. And it's like, that's a completely, completely unique to a guy that used to tour as a drummer, right? There's nobody else that can do that work except for that guy, because he knows those people and he loves those people and he can talk their language. And now he's in those places, um, having rich conversations about faith with those folks. And I just, I just didn't I, the heart to think about how God has uniquely placed him in that situation.
Speaker 1 00:24:31 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm just impressed. He still knows where to find grunge bands in Seattle. Come on <inaudible> was it like a, like a Nirvana cover band or something?
Speaker 3 00:24:47 I think it might have been so big. It might've been sad or
Speaker 1 00:24:53 That's amazing. Well, wonderful. Chris, you get the gold star for the podcast episode. That's wonderful. I do want to highlight what we're saying here, which I think is, um, is worth noting that you got, I hear you describing implanting the process of joining with the context of sort of this cost identification. As you said, Chris, this communion that we enter into with the people in the context that creates something that nobody anticipated, you know, and so I think there's a humility there that's required of church planners who want to do it this way, that a willingness not to know the end from the beginning, a willingness to say my, I have some ideas, but this is needs to be shaped by my communion with these people, my intimacy with this context.
Speaker 4 00:25:44 And I, and I think then on that front, one of the things that we are trying to undermine is the notion of the lone ranger parachute plants. Yes. And I think Brad and I both would bear witness to the fact that it's, um, it's a lot harder to plant a church as a hero and drop behind enemy lines and do it all by yourself. And yet for many church planters, that's the only imagination that they have for what a plant would look like. Right? So one of the things that we're trying to do in terms, and this is more like Todd to use your term move mental, uh, to shape the culture is to really stir up churches in our diocese to have an imagination, whether they're big churches or small churches to be mother church plants to be sending generative. I mean, one of our favorite words around here is generative kingdom living. And I think a big part of that is our hope is that if we do this right, as a diocese, there won't be any more parachute church planners because people will be given so much support that they're doing this with teams. We shouldn't have to do this work by ourselves, to your point, a part of exiting your community is to plant in community with team.
Speaker 1 00:26:52 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:26:54 And now we're trying to introduce some new language to all of our churches about something called residency. And that can mean a lot to different people, but how can you out of your church now form an imagination for planting such that you identify potential planters, take them through some process. Um, so that at some point your church is yielding a daughter, um, church, and then they go out with support and they go out with vision. I mean, to, to parachute drop, there's a, there's such a high level of risk and there's a, there's a skill set. That's really unique to a parachute drop that you need not be right. In some ways you, you can make this simpler. If you take them out, give some training and then send them out with a team. And some resources doesn't have to be a lot because I'm thinking about Kevin striction Chicago's and that Sandy Richter, they're not a church of more than 150, and they've already had a residency and sent out a church plan.
Speaker 3 00:27:55 Well, if he could do it, then every church can do it. Now we have to just have an imagination for like, of all the things that we're called to do as structures. One of the significant things is to think about multiplication. And I'll tell you if we do that as a diocese, it will take on its own life. Right? So like if every church has this imagination for church Lang uh, essentially Todd's going to have to hire more people to kind of oversee all this stuff because it's going to be, uh, it'll be a wonderfully out of control. This is movement language, right. And I'm not saying we're trying to start a new movement, but like, just think about a wave of church planting through CFSA across all the places that we're at. Well, that's that I'm, I'm ready to buy into that vision. Like I want it, I want to be a part of something like that.
Speaker 1 00:28:42 Yes. Amen. Um, let's shift gears. We want to talk not just about church planting, but also about the other process here is church adoption, just to speak about, um, and maybe that falls under your, your title. Chris is the, you're the Canon for church development. And maybe the whole thing kind of goes under that, but what is, what do you do? What does a Canon for church development do? How do you work together with, um, with church planting and then maybe give us an overview of what do we mean by church adoption and some examples of that?
Speaker 4 00:29:14 Yeah, that's, that's a good question. And one that I think we're constantly answering together and Todd, Todd and I are, um, I think the short, short description of my job description, I guess, or would be, I want to make Todd's life easier and, and make our, our diocese be, uh, actionably living into what he says he wants it to be. And so the way that, that works for me, when it comes to church development is walking alongside Brad. When it comes to his leadership with church planting early on, before Brad came on the team, I was doing church planting the whole process. And now Brad does that work and I oversee him, but we partner together in, Brad's doing just an amazing job when it comes to church adoption. Um, I want to just be really clear about this. See for us. So we're not a recruiting agency, uh, that's just not our heart.
Speaker 4 00:30:03 Um, but the short sort of shorthand for adoption are churches in either other diocese or other denominational spaces that are curious about Anglicanism and C4. So in particular, and because we're not a recruiting agency, um, my job is to walk alongside those curious people. We never recruit them. They come to us and my job is to discern with them around our values, our culture, to really discern, are they, are they one, are they us? Are they aligned or are our values and culture? And are they Anglican? And we say no to more churches than we say yes to. Um, we really want to do this, uh, in a manner that's consistent and will amplify our vision as a diocese. So I talk to church leaders all the time who are in varying stages, similar to Brad, where he's got 10 church planters at any given moment. I've probably got 10 churches that are kind of swimming around our boat. And most of them don't make it into the boat because we want the ones that do to actually be a value add. And we actually want to be an add to them. We want to support them. So like, you know, it's, it's an exciting process. And I think it's some really cool stuff happening there.
Speaker 1 00:31:15 Yeah. Yeah. And I see that, I'm just to bring that back to church development, that language, I see that as part of part of what you describe as church development, where the development of the, of our churches is development along the lines of vision values. So there's this alignment. It isn't just a loosely organized group of churches that happen to relate to Todd as a Bishop. There is an actual sense of there's a culture to these kinds of churches. And that's a really important thing for us to maintain and to bring in. So if churches are going to come in, we need to know that that's a good fit. Amen.
Speaker 4 00:31:50 And another aspect of development is leadership development. And that's something that's taught is directing a conversation right now that's in process around how we as a diocese are going to do leadership development. And, um, while we can't give you tons of concrete stuff there, now, I think we will be able to do that before too long, because one of the things I love about our diocese and frankly love about Todd is a heart, not just to put resources out there, but to actually create pathways for development for clergy and for influencers in our diocese. Um, one of the things that I think we're all witnessing is that C4. So there's a real sense of kingdom momentum going with our diocese right now. And I, for 1:00 AM very inspired in my role to do what I can to support Todd, to see that be wisely and well.
Speaker 4 00:32:40 And so we're having conversations around, um, what do we do to actually help the internal life of a leader, um, be maintained. How do we give resources on, like, Todd's got an upcoming clergy hours on financial responsibility for churches during COVID. We, we just want to be that kind of diocese where we're equipping people, putting tools in their toolbox so that we can do our jobs better, but also so that we can flourish in the Lord because if we're not flourishing, then all the work we do is just going to kind of have the shelf life, a shorter shelf life a week or shelf life than we want it to.
Speaker 1 00:33:17 Yeah. Great. Well, uh, before we wrap up here, Bishop Todd, I want to give you a chance to do something I know you like to do, which is to kind of brag on the people that you work with and to highlight, but what was, what was it about Chris and Brad that made you think they'd be good candidates for these jobs?
Speaker 2 00:33:35 Yeah, well, we, we both go back a long time. Um, Brad and I more personally, uh, Chris and I less personally, um, and this is just an irony. It wasn't something any of the three of us planned out, but we all three have vineyard backgrounds, um, and all were, you know, a one way or another on the Canterbury trail. So when I think of Chris, I just always think of his absolutely innate, um, intuitive understanding of our DNA. You know, sometimes it's called three streams or whatever. I don't, I'm not against that language. I don't particularly love it, but you know, the guests, the charismatic Devon's analytical, the liturgical sacramental. Um, and I, and I know the way, uh, Chris has lived that out in Trinity. Um, you know, as he said, he's got a long, um, experience in church leadership, but because he happens to have had a big church, um, he's lived through all the, you know, he's lived through the crunch of 12 people in the living room and 30 people in two small groups and 75 people and their first public meeting, the 200 barrier, you know, 500 to 1200, 2000.
Speaker 2 00:34:46 And he's just got so much, um, experience with all of that aspect. And that means, you know, a lot of experience in leading other clergy and leading staff. And then I don't, I don't know, Chris, it doesn't really matter, but also planted several churches. I don't know how many exactly, but you know, a handful of churches let's say out of Trinity. So just bringing that voice, married to an intuitive grasp of our values is just super helpful. Um, especially as he says, as he's doing, I mean, it was helpful with the church planning, no doubt, but it almost feels more helpful in the adoptions because like Chris said, we have to be so careful. It's one of the things we saw in the vineyard again, back in the day is that people would get all excited about John. They'd get all excited about hearing about the person and work of the spirit for the first time.
Speaker 2 00:35:33 And, you know, maybe they were Southern Baptist or Presbyterians or Lutherans, whatever, and wanted join the vineyard. And it just almost never really worked out well, it, you know, they would, they would inadvertently change our DNA. Their congregations really weren't with it. Maybe the pastor was, but the congregation wasn't. So, you know, Chris knows how to, how to work all that stuff through. And I think with Brad, um, besides his long connection to me was that Brad is kind of a rare mix of being thoughtful about these things. And well-read, you know, in the body of literature with church planting and church leadership and stuff, but also has been a practitioner and working with planters his whole life. And, and that's something very special. I think it's a part of like, I'd bet. I'd bet. One of my last dollars that as we start trying to run out this residency program, I think some of the just human resistance we're going to find is a lot of pastors feeling like they can't do it. Like, I don't know how to replicate myself for our, I didn't. I was never a planter. I got hired into this job. And the good thing about Brad is he, again, he knew it from soup to nuts, as they say, and is able to, I'm hoping that the three of us are going to be able to help give our current rectors of vision for being able to do it.
Speaker 1 00:36:52 And some confidence that even if you didn't plant a church, there's a lot resident within a lot of knowledge, a lot of wisdom that just needs to be kind of shared out. Sometimes just having a resident asking questions, polls pulls it out of you
Speaker 2 00:37:05 And just help them see, they don't have to be expert that there's expertise around them, that there are other things they can add to the success of a church plan besides precise church planning expertise. If we can show them that and then surround them with the kind of expertise that Brad and others have, then hopefully we can get that movement going good. This was talking about,
Speaker 1 00:37:24 Yeah, that's great. Well, Chris, Brad, I hope that that encourages you. It's always good to hear your Bishop say good things about you, right. So, um, how about, uh, one last question for each of you short, uh, briefly before we go, as you think about 20, 21, we're just getting started here, but what are you looking forward to, or hoping for, or praying for in just any area of your life? What's something that's that you're looking forward to in 2021,
Speaker 3 00:37:48 Brad, you go first, I want to become the kind of work, a person who can use the word at least Elizabethan in a sentence and do it wisely. That's a big goal of mine for this year. I know I, when I think about our work, I do really think that we want to really support, well, the 10, 11 church plants we want to now there's a, uh, six or seven there, somewhere in the process. We want to see them go through the entire healthy process and be launched, but we do really want to create an imagination. Like I really want people to start thinking about how can we do it here? That's a may, will be a really good sign, a healthy, it's not like the everyone's going to do it the next day, but if they just start dreaming about it this year, uh, ask him a question.
Speaker 0 00:38:36 I think that will be a kind of a kingdom win.
Speaker 4 00:38:40 I would, I would say that I hope as we come out of this pandemic, that, um, churches will have an imagination for not just survival, but for kingdom advancement through church planting and mentoring and developing leaders and my prayer for my own church and my own spirit, as well as for the churches in our diocese is that we would be known as the kind of people who emphatically reject a scarcity mindset. Um, like Todd, who would quote Dallas, Willard says we're entirely in, perfectly safe in God's kingdom when we are with Jesus and y'all were going to get to live out. Whether we really believe that or not. I think as we come through the months ahead, will we be open-handed or close fisted? And my hope is that we'll all be including myself. That we'll be open-handed
Speaker 1 00:39:31 Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us, Chris and Brad, it was really great to have you. Thanks for sharing all that you shared. If you listener would like information about church planting or church adoption or residency or all that kind of stuff, we'll put some links in the show notes for you to be able to reach out to Chris or Brad about either of those things. And we will catch you next time. We'll have you back on once we figured out what we're doing for leadership development. How about that sounds like a plan,
Speaker 0 00:39:59 Right? Thanks again for listening to this episode of the C4. So podcast, we hope you enjoyed our conversation. Email us your thoughts and suggestions at connect at <inaudible> dot org.
